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n the other side of my “hurricane” I can tell you—it wasn’t enough to silence my love. As a matter of fact, it strengthened it! Years ago I counted the cost. My doors and windows were boarded up with faith and hope. I am tumor free, cancer free, and healthy enough to keep mopping up the floors of other hurricane victims for awhile yet.
John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Hi Mary,
ReplyDeleteI hope you don't think I'm a jerk for asking this, but your posts always create more questions in my head. You speak figuratively about your doors and windows being boarded up with faith and hope. That I get. But aren't you really putting your faith and hope in modern medicine and good doctors? In my mind, if a person has complete trust and faith in God, they shouldn't have to go to the doctor. It would be like me saying that I have faith that God will make my 1995 Saturn Wagon stop making that weird sound. AND THEN taking it to a mechanic. Where is my faith there?
It kind of goes back to my question about churches that are temporary eliminating the passing of the peace, because of the swine flu. These same churches pray to keep their parishioners healthy, but then put out hand sanitizer and refuse to touch one another. How is that faith? I apparently don't understand what the definition of what faith is.
Tim - I hope you don't mind me stepping in here. I'll let Mary answer as well. But I wanted to address the definition of faith and the fact that our culture has obscured the meaning by misusing the word.
ReplyDeleteOur culture typically uses the word "faith" in the same way as we use the concepts of the power of positive thinking. Our society looks at faith in this way: "If I have enough faith, I can make it happen." So then, if I have enough faith that my car will stop making that weird sound, the faith will make it happen. Some people say that is faith in God, others say it is faith in the power of positive thinking. And there are many other things or persons that our society likes to "place our faith in."
But faith for the Christian is a positive recognition of the truth revealed in the Bible. According to scripture, no one is able to muster this kind of faith on his own--it is a gift of God. This gift of faith comes along with the gift of repentance. The recipient of the gift of faith repents of his sin against God and accepts the sacrifice Jesus Christ made on the cross and steps into the rest of life with faith in the God of the Bible.
If the Bible said somewhere that God was going to make the weird sound in your car stop, you could have full faith--full assurance-- that the sound would stop. But the Bible doesn't tell us this about God.
Mary's faith in God was according to what she knows of God from scripture. God promises to take care of his people (those who have repented and believed in Jesus Christ) and to work all things for their blessing and for his glory. Mary knew that this is the truth about God, so she knew that whatever God chose to do would be the best possible thing for her and would also bring glory to Him.
When Mary asked us to pray that she would not lose her ability to play the clarinet, she was expressing her personal desire to God. We are told in scripture to bring our requests to God: "do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus" Philippians 4:6-7.
This peace was what Mary boarded up her doors and windows with. And it is the peace brought by faith in the God revealed in scripture. Not faith in some sort of Santa Claus who gives us presents or in a powerful being who tries his best to help us make it through life, but faith in the God who created the world for a purpose and has planned each event for the blessing of his people and for his honor and glory to be shown.
One of Jesus' disciples (Luke) was a physician. God uses people's skill and education to benefit others. Their skill and education also brings glory to God because he has created man and given him the ability to accomplish amazing noble things. So going to a doctor is an evidence that we have faith in God's stated design for the world--including our personal need for each other and for each other's skills.
Tim, I have a brief comment, but I'll try to formulate something a little more coherent when I've been awake awhile...
ReplyDeleteMy faith was not in the positive outcome of this trial. I did not believe, foolishly, that if God was who He said He was, that everything would turn out for my benefit. You see, the goal of my life is greater than to live in wealth or to live a pain free existence. Instead, my desire is that my life would bring me to a greater knowledge of the character of God, and that through whatever I experience, God will get glory. I do believe, Tim, that God had a bigger purpose to this "hurricane" than just my personal comfort. He allowed the tumor, the post surgical pain, and the fear of cancer and a couple of other unknowns I'm not going to mention here. Why would a loving God do that to me? Aren't I faithful? What did I do to make Him angry? Well, the reality is this: God desires to bring glory to Himself in and through me. In the process, He rewards me with His presence and His peace, and the hope for a future with Him that will outshine my current existence.
So my faith was not in the outcome, but rather in the God who was in charge of this process, that His purposes would come about, that He would give me the strength to endure, but more importantly, that He would not leave me stranded in the storm. He was right in the boat with me, and when it was time, Jesus calmed the storm. He can be trusted, that's the source of my faith. He, not my health, is the reward. Here's a favorite passage: Isaiah 43:1-3 “Do not be afraid, for I have ransomed you. I have called you by name; you are mine. When you go through deep waters, I will be with you. When you go through rivers of difficulty, you will not drown. When you walk through the fire of oppression, you will not be burned up; the flames will not consume you. For I am the Lord, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior."
Richard and Mary,
ReplyDeleteThanks for taking the time to answer my questoin on faith. I'm not sure I totally understand, but I appreciate you trying to explain.
Let me try to summarize what I believe you're saying. Faith is not the belief that God will make all circumstances turn out for our benefit. Faith is the belief that God will bring us to a deeper relationship with him, through our trials. Is that close?
So let me try to ask my question another way. And I apologize for going back to the example of all these churches who are taking precautions to prevent people from getting the flu. (No more community commuion cup, no sharing of the peace, hand sanitizors etc) When the people in these church's say they put their trust and faith in God; aren't they saying that whether the outcome is good or bad, they believe that Gods decision will be what is best? So why the precautions? If I pray for God to keep my family healthy and they get the flu, isn't that HIS decision?
Also Mary, I respect you for living your life for a bigger purpose. I hope you know that most non-believers, like myself, do the same. While I struggle to find purpose in life, I know that it does not exist in wealth or material things. I find purpose in volunteering, in spending time with my kids, in getting out of my own head and being able to love others. I do realize that God says that he is disgusted with my good deeds, if they are not done to glorify him. But I honestly am not refusing to believe to be a jerk. I just don't see the proof. And my punishment for that will be eternity in hell.
Have a great day!
Tim
Tim, you always have such great questions!! They are not at all "trying" to deal with. In response to your latest question, I think it's good to remember that the Bible cautions us NOT to put God to the test. Wisdom is a gift from God and one He desires for us to use consistently. Not exercising the wisdom given to us by God is in effect, not exercising faith. For instance, should I expose my children to H1N1 just because I know God CAN fix it, or should I use the wisdom God has given me to employ sensible precautions to avoid it? I think the second option is faith in the God of wisdom, not just the God of miracles. But I must tell you, Tim, I do not see the communion cup as the actual blood and body of Jesus, but a symbol of them. So in our worship services, we have always used disposable cups and matzo crackers in a basket which our deacons distribute. So such precautions, in my estimation, do not limit our celebration of the communion. Illness can most often be avoided by frequent hand washing and use of hand sanitizer when soap and water are not readily available, so why give up our physical fellowship. But as I mentioned before, the wisest thing any of us can do is to stay home when we are sick out of love for our brothers and sisters. Some things are better not to be shared...
ReplyDeleteTrue faith engages the full truth of the scriptures and believes not in a God who can perform tricks, but in Him Who delights to bless His children and demonstrate His power in and through them. Then, true faith uses the wisdom which He freely gives (James 1:5) in our daily living.
Oh, one more thing. "Faith is not the belief that God will make all circumstances turn out for our benefit." I think I gave you the idea that God's will does not always benefit us. Well, that's sort of a perception thing. What God does benefits us. But it may not be the benefit for which I hope or ask. However, I do know that He can be trusted to do what is BEST for me, even if it isn't pleasant for the moment. I know that, both from the revelation of the scriptures and from walking with Him for several decades now. He has faithfully demonstrated that time and time again.
ReplyDeleteMary has covered this well, but I wanted to add my perspective on the communion/faith issue.
ReplyDeleteWhen serving the first "Lord's Supper," Jesus told his disciples (including us) to "do this in remembrance of me." He did not say how frequently we should "do this," but it was a command. If we have chosen, as most Evangelical churches have, to observe communion once per month, we would not be obeying this command if we were to suspend the observance because of flu fears. I do believe that this shows a lack of faith. It also is a poor example to give to the watching world. When Daniel (of the lion's den fame) received the command to pray only to the king, he had already established a routine of praying to God in his open window. Had he chosen to close his window so as to avoid punishment when he disobeyed the king's edict he would have been setting a bad example and showing a lack of faith to those who were watching him.
He chose to obey God instead of the king's edict. That was a demonstration of faith. But his faith did not keep him from punishment. He was still thrown to the lions. And I'm sure that was a good bit more scary to him than the flu is to us.
In that instance, God eventually delivered Daniel from the lions, and that is not always the way things will work out. Each circumstance is unique and the promise that we have from God is that whatever happens, it will be to our benefit and it will bring glory to him. So we step out by faith knowing that whatever happens will meet those promises we have from God.
When I was in high school our family always attended our church's Wednesday night services. There were times when we had tons of homework and wanted to stay home from church to do our homework. My parents always told us that we would go to church and they would allow us to stay up later to finish our homework. And then we prayed that God would help us to stay focused the next day. That was my parents way of teaching us that we need to obey the commands of God (forsake not the assembling of yourselves together) and then trust him to work out the details.
Richard and Mary,
ReplyDeleteHas anyone's head ever exploded because it was filled with too many questions? I found both of your responses to be facinating and well thought out. The only trouble is that that you created more questions. Sorry.
Mary pointed out that the Bible tells us not to put God to the test. (I didn't realize this) What I'm having trouble with is understanding the difference between trusting God and testing God. When Richard's parents prayed for him to stay focused in school, despite not getting much sleep, they were putting their trust in God. Correct? But when a church prays for the good health of its members, despite the fact that they're still hugging or touching one another, they're testing God? Why would that not be trust. Do you see my confusion? I guess I feel that both scenarios are similar. Richard was allowed to stay up late because he was doing something to glorify God in attending church. When people pass the peace in church, they are also doing so to glorify God.
Deep down I think what I'm really looking for is proof. And perhaps I'm being selfish is wanting this. It just seems that no matter what happens in a Christian's life, they always have a way letting God off the hook. When we pray that a missing girl is returned to her family and it turns out that she is raped and killed, Christians will say "God is not to blame, It is evil" When we pray for someone who is sick to get better, but doesn't, Christians say that it is God's will and it will ultimately work to glorify God. When we pray for someone to get better and they do get better, Christians say "Praise God and the power of prayer!"
About 5 years ago I was out of work and going through the process of interviewing for a new job. For most people interviews wouldn't be a big deal. For someone like me who lacks self esteem and struggles with self loathing, it was a real test. Before ever interview I would pray. Not to a Christian God, but to a Higher Power. I asked for confidence and peace. And you know what? It worked. I think I told you before that I have a friend who prays to a tree. And this makes her feel as if every detail of her life will work out for the best. I guess I don't know what the difference is between how our pretend Gods made us feel and how your supposedly real God makes you feel?
Once again, Tim, you've brought up some very good questions. I'll try to address just a couple and perhaps Mary can cover some others.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, testing God and trusting God have more to do with attitude than action. In other words, if you put yourself into a bad situation intentionally expecting God to save you from your bad choice, you're testing God. If, however, that same bad situation would allow you to do something good (help another person, for exaample) and you do it resting in the assurance that God is in full control and everything that happens is his will, then you are trusting God. Same action, but different motivation.
If someone chooses to avoid some human contact during a health scare, that is between them and God and may not indicate that they lack trust - but rather that they are being wise and prudent. If another person chooses to put themselves in danger trusting in God's providence along the way, that is between them and God and may not indicate lack of sense - but rather that they see a higher purpose in it all.
I don't like the idea of a church canceling communion or other human contact because of a perceived health scare because once the church does that it is no longer a personal faith response. I believe a church doing such a thing at the very least looks like a lack of faith.
Regarding the example you gave of the girl getting raped and the people responding with "God is not to blame; it is evil." Well, to be perfectly frank, those people don't know who God is or how God operates. God is in total and complete control of everything that ever happens. God says, "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity,I am the Lord, who does all these" Isaiah 45:7. Amos 3:6 says, "Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?"
Well meaning Christians often do just what you have described. They let God off the hook. When in fact, God does not need to be let off the hook to soothe our human understanding. The Bible declares that God is the very definition of righteousness, so if something he does (causes to happen) seems wrong to us, our faulty human logic is to blame, not God. Whatever God does is good.
My comment was too long to fit into one post. Here's the rest of it:
ReplyDelete-----------
The Bible story that makes this the most clear for me is the story of Joseph. Joseph's brothers plotted against him because they were jealous of the affection their father had toward him. So they planned to kill him. They eventually tore his cherished coat from his back and threw him into a pit. Then when a caravan of traders came by, they sold him to them as a slave. The traders sold him into slavery in Egypt where he was falsely accused of attempted rape and thrown into prison. Eventually he was released from prison and put in charge of the food stores for all of Egypt, allowing him to help his father, brothers, and their families to survive a severe famine. When his brothers saw that he was a highly important person in Egypt they became afraid that he would put them to death for their treachery. But in Genesis 50:20 he responds to them with, "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." Joseph didn't say that God changed the circumstances to work out for good or that God overcame the evil that his bad brothers had done. Joseph says that God meant all this evil for the ultimate good. God planned it, executed his plan, and brought it to fruition. He was in total control the whole way.
Our frail and finite human minds have great trouble with that concept. But that is the God of the Bible.
Some folks respond to that God with disgust. They choose to view themselves as better than God--more moral, perhaps. They carry that smugness with them to eternal hell. Others respond to the truth of the God revealed in the Bible recognizing that their finite humanness makes it hard for them to conceive of the righteousness of God in all these matters. They turn to this God for salvation, recognizing that they cannot do it on their own, and thus become the beneficiaries of the promises God has made to his people: "for those who love God all things work together for good" Romans 8:28.
You know Tim, I think that what you and your friend exhibit IS faith. What you need to decide is if the object of your faith is worthy of your trust. Perhaps that's why your head keeps exploding with questions. Rich and I have found that the God in whom we have placed our faith is worthy of that trust. But it IS faith, just like your friend has in her tree.
ReplyDeleteI don't feel I'm letting God off the hook when he doesn't do as I see fit, because an Almighty God has no obligation to me. He chooses to bless us, and we thank Him. To demand God to do as I see fit is to raise myself to the level of God and lower Him to a mere servant who does my bidding. That, to me, is not a God worth serving. And then there is this question -- am I letting God off the hook when I perceive He failed, or are you hanging Him by the hook when I perceive He has succeeded.
I know we've given you as much evidence as we can, Tim, but there is no proof for your Higher Power, your friend's tree, or my God. You must put your faith in the person/object of your choosing.
One final thought...if you're wrong, and there is no afterlife, and no Higher Power to which I am responsible, then there is no risk for me, and my faith gave me a great life. If, however, I am correct, that there is a God, and a coming judgement based on your response to Jesus Christ, not only have you struggled in this life, but the afterlife will be complete misery.
You know the hardest thing, Tim? It is to watch God deal with someone as He is you, and to be patient while He reveals Himself to you in His time, rather than mine. But you won't find a personal God outside the Bible, and that's where you must look if you desire to find Him.
You know Tim, Rich wrote his response as I was writing mine, and I believe he explained the "letting God off the hook." much better than I did, so if you're choosing between the two, go with Rich's explanation. Mine doesn't disagree, but it doesn't explore the issue to the depth that Rich did, so give more credence to his exploration.
ReplyDeleteRichard, You know your stuff!
ReplyDeleteI apologize if it seems like I'm trying to make my point over and over again. I do get what you're saying about doing something intentionally to put God to the test. If I purposely licked a pig, infected with the swine flu, then God deserves to let me get sick. (Sorry about that visual) In this scenario I'm clearly licking the pig to test God's powers.
But what if I'm taking part in an action that is not being done to test God, but I'm doing it because I sincerely trust him to protect me. I'll go back to a church using a community communion cup. Something they've done for hundreds of years. If they continue to use the cup when a virus is going around, aren't they really trusting God. To claim they are testing him, makes the assumption that they're not sure God will come through. On the other hand, if they truly trust God, I don't see it as a test. In other words I don't think refusing to take precautions in dangerous situations is putting God to the test if you sincerely trust him. (I think I need a nap)
Mary-THANK YOU for the honesty of your response. In all my years of searching, not one single Christian has had the guts to say that there is no proof of their God or any other God.
Can I ask one last question on this? You say that if I look in the Bible I will find God. How? I mean if I read the Bible enough will I eventually have a revolation that it is the truth? What other Christians have told me is basically I need to believe before I can believe. Know what I mean? Which almost sounds like a brian washing to me.
Amen.
PS. I'm sure it doesn't seem like it, but both of you have helped me a lot. THANK YOU
Well, I've told you this before, that if I want to get to know you, I need to read what YOU have written. Asking others about you, might or might not give me a clear view of who you truly are. It is senseless for me to tell you about Mohammed or Allah without reading the Koran, because I haven't examined the primary sources. That's why I've read a great portion of the Koran, so that I can at least intelligently tell you why I reject it.
ReplyDeleteIt's not that you WILL believe if you examine the Bible, but you will have read what God has said about Himself, what His prophets have said, and how His followers experienced Him. Then you can make a truly informed decision.
I'm going to go a step further, Tim, than most Christians. I am going to tell you that I believe that the Bible teaches you cannot believe until the Holy Spirit awakens your heart. I believe He is already doing so. These questions remind me of when I first understood the truth of the gospel. I didn't just one day say, "Oh cool, God exists and I can be His child." No, there were plenty of questions. In fact Jesus warned His disciples to "count the cost" before making a commitment to Him. I think you are beginning to count up the cost. But avoiding the scriptures when you want to know more about God is like avoiding AA meetings when you want to know about the program. It doesn't do you much good to ask people about the program, it's much better if you go visit and interact with the program. You may choose not to stay, but there's no harm in checking it out.
Again, Tim, you do NOT have to believe before you can believe. You simply have to examine the evidence, and even, if you wish, continue asking God to let you have the "for sure" knowledge that you seek, but when that "for sure" comes, it will be faith, and it will NOT be something you can prove. And Tim, I am praying for you that you would make the decision that would affect not just your enjoyment of this life, but eternity as well.
Thanks Mary,
ReplyDeleteDo you think I'm wrong in my belief that faith in a specific God can only come when a given belief system is reinforced over and over again?
I have read your story of how you came to believe in God. And I totally related to the acceptance and love you felt from your church. Even now, after being out of church for 6 or 7 years, I still miss being part of that community. Church was one of the few places where I felt I belonged. I think I told you that as a teenager, it was my goal to be a minister just like my dad.
When I was in my 20's I moved away to begin a career in radio. My first job called for me to work Sunday mornings, so for the first time in my life I wasn't going to church. This separation from religion gave me a chance to step back and question everything I had been taught about God.
What's funny is that I went back to church, the first opportunaity I had. In fact I dove right in, teaching Sunday School, Youth Group and helping out wherever they needed me. I loved feeling needed. I had so much invested in religion that giving it up was never an option. In a sense it was like a drug. In fact I've heard Christians say that God is like an addiction.
My point is this. If I were to go pick up a Koran and read it. I already know that I will reject it. All of those years of church have placed some pretty strong tapes in my head. Even with all my doubt, I find it nearly impossible to consider a God other than the Christian God. And the same could be said for a child who was raised to believe in the Koran. Would he be willing to read a Bible and even consider that it was the truth? Would he be willing to give up BELONGING? I doubt it.
You'll be happy to know that I'll be gone for a couple of days. Honestly I even tire myself out.
Take Care
Tim
Oh, Tim, that happens ALL the time. I know people who have left the muslim faith in which they grew up to follow after Christ, even with the threat of death looming over their head. One such girl has been in the news recently. Muslim families around the globe believe it brings enough disgrace on the family, that a child or spouse who defects to the Christian faith must be killed. And many new converts fear either shunning or death for their faith. They risk the belonging and yet they DO believe. If you'd like to dialogue with one or two, please let me know and I'd love to put you in touch with them.
ReplyDeleteConversely, you may have people who grew up in the church readily reject faith or even choose another. Many American muslims are people who grew up in churches that claimed to be Christian.(I say this because I am so narrow minded that not all people who believe ABOUT Jesus have placed their trust in Him and chosen to follow Him, so I really don't believe those people/churches are truly Christian. I'll admit my bias openly here...)
No, though a "change of heart" may occur for some who have been molded and shaped by their culture, true faith is a result of placing your trust in something/someone, not just a mental assent to a particular religion.
The older I get, Tim, the more I look for a key element in someone who says they believe in the God of the Bible and the person and work of Jesus Christ. If they are "in it" for the blessings, the fame, the "eternal rewards", they are likely to fall away at some point. BUT if a person is a believer because they truly see God as their reward -- His presence, His favor, His mercy, His lovingkindness...in other words the RELATIONSHIP, then I'm pretty satisfied as much as I can be that such a person is a genuine believer.
So on this one, Tim, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Personally, the culture I grew up in was anti-Christian. I often say that my teenage rebellion was my faith :D The culture I walked into was totally different from my own, and frankly, I did not "fit in" for a very long time, in either world. I have observed too many come to faith that did not grow up in the Christian culture, or leave the faith who did.