March 26, 2008

Persisting in error

"To err is human, to persist in error is diabolical."

I have often seen a tendency in myself and in others I have observed to develop personal favorite activities and to eventually come to a point where we hate to give those activities up. The obvious example of this is something like drinking or smoking, which may develop into addictions that require intervention to break. The smoker or the alcoholic refuses to quit, even when he is told how very bad continued indulgence in this activity will be for him. In fact, even the good of exercising may lead to addiction and become a bad thing. The Apostle Paul directly addressed the fact that we need to keep even these good things under check by saying: "For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come" 1 Timothy 4:8.

Matthew Henry Those are marked for ruin who persist in sin, and are not ashamed of the abominations they have committed

 

Jeremiah 8:12Were they ashamed when they committed abomination? No, they were not at all ashamed; they did not know how to blush. Therefore they shall fall among the fallen; when I punish them, they shall be overthrown, says the Lord.

Many other activities we get involved in may have bad consequences as well, especially if we persist in them after we have been alerted to a problem. Consider the concept of propounding or defending a particular doctrine. Let's say we have been convinced of the truth of evolution. We are determined to convince folks that evolution and not creation is the force that brought our world into existence. We push and push and push that line of thinking.

And then one day we run into a well-educated and well-spoken Intelligent Design proponent. We present our argument to him, laying out each tile in the mosaic of our complete system, complete with our interpretation of the archaeological data backing our idea and statements from experts who agree with our position. But as we lay each tile, this Intelligent Design guru obliterates every one of our arguments with solid fact, science, and philosophy. In the end, we find that we have not been able to answer his positions in the way he has answered ours. He has won the debate, and done so clearly.

And yet, the next day, we accost the first person we see and present to them all the same things we said before because this new person probably doesn't know the things the Intelligent Design guy did and he will likely be persuaded by our presentation.

This is called "persisting in error." It happens when we have a "pet" doctrine that we like to proclaim, but then our arguments in support of that doctrine are shown to be wrong, say by scripture and by a demand on using proper terminology and historically accurate definitions. Nevertheless, we continue to push our defeated arguments on other unsuspecting victims.

I have recently been made aware of a group of bloggers who are promoting a non-biblical use of the word modesty. Although many people have pointed out the error in definition that is giving rise to a tremendously inaccurate interpretation of the scripture, these folks persist in their use of the inaccurate definition. No defense has been made along the line of why this inaccurate definition is being used. The simple fact is that the only reason someone who cannot defend their position will post that position again after it has been refuted is that they choose to "persist in error."

This scenario played out over the past couple of weeks on Mrs. Stacy McDonald's blog, Your Sacred Calling. She was made aware of the errors she had made in her application and interpretation of a scriptural passage. She made no defense of her position, and yet persists in her error.

This is the passage in question:

1 Peter 3:3-4 Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair, the wearing of gold, or the putting on of clothing— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.

The blogs I have seen covering this passage are almost all making the same mistake—that of thinking that this verse is talking about women dressing in a way so as to entice men. That is quite clearly not what this passage is talking about. The blogs not making this mistake are discussing the passage to point out that the mistake has been made by others.

Because words may have multiple definitions, we sometimes clarify our speech with qualifying phrases using parallels, examples, antonyms and synonyms. These techniques help us to more clearly convey our thoughts and help keep people from misunderstanding what we were saying.

The inspired words of scripture here use such techniques to help keep us on track. Peter says, "Do not let your adorning be external." He then ensures the reader's understanding by giving some examples: "the braiding of hair, the wearing of gold, or the putting on of clothing." He then continues the clarification with an opposite parallel: "but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit." Quite clearly this passage is not encouraging women to be careful that they cover themselves appropriately with clothing. It is in fact saying that this should not be their primary focus. We can probably agree that proper covering will be an outworking of that gentle and quiet spirit, but it is certainly not being demanded by this scripture.

A similarly misused scripture is found in 1 Timothy 2:9-10, which says:

Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

Here Paul is telling Pastor Timothy that he should instruct women to be modest in their appearance. Again he uses communication techniques to qualify and focus his statements. He begins with: "Women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel." He then focuses that "respectable apparel" with the phrase: "with modesty and self-control." To make sure that Timothy understands what he means by "modesty and self-control" when regarding apparel, Paul then gives some negative examples: "not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire." He is obviously using the more common meaning of modest here: living in a simple way rather than in an ostentatious way, as in "he is a man of modest means." He is saying that the women should not be slaves to fashion, worrying incessantly about what they're going to wear. This parallels exactly the requirements in the previous passage that the women dress themselves in a "gentle and quiet spirit."

Paul then continues the clarification with a definitional phrase to make clear what he meant. He does this by way of a material example: "but [they should adorn themselves] with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works." Paul is saying that the woman's focus should not be on her manner of dress, but rather on the good works "which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" Ephesians 2:10.

I know that we are all prone to this sort of idolatry of our "favorite" doctrines—holding them in higher regard than scripture at times. But the fact that we are all prone to this does not make this right. I urge all who see the name Stacy McDonald attached to a book, a blog, an article, a group, or a conference to beware. Don't fall for the veneer. Do some research. Find the truth and don’t allow yourself to be drawn into a well thought out philosophical system that is not biblically based.

37 comments:

  1. Richard,

    This technique is actually one of thought reform, a program that Vision Forum and their affiliates like the McDonalds use well. When I spoke on the topic at a seminary earlier this month, though patriarchy employs all of Robert Lifton's thought reform criteria, I stated that patriarchy is especially adept at "Loading the Language."

    This involves taking terms and twisting their meaning just enough to confuse people and keep them off-balance. ("Ye shall not surely die.") Federal Vision did this when they redefined "imputation" and used it to mean that Jesus' works on earth rather than what is traditionally known as my sin imputed to Jesus and His righteousness imputed to me.

    I posted some good stuff on my blog about this:

    The word "Biblical" becomes a thought-stopping cliche: http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2007/11/term-biblical-becomes-thought-stopping.html

    About Lifton's "Loading the Language":
    http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2007/11/loading-language-lifton-101.html

    Religious Modifiers and the Power of Connotation: http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2007/11/biblical-modifiers-and-discernment.html

    Spiritual abuse and cult theory maintains that a person can be dominated by getting control of one of the three psychological manifestations of a person: thought, emotion and/or behavior. The psychological stress of dominating one and not the others is so great, the mind will just give in to pressure. So if I can get a foothold into how you use a particular set of words, working into your language and then your thoughts, I can get you to do or feel most anything.

    Another good post on this:

    About "Closing the Ideological Sale" http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2007/11/closing-ideological-sale.html

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  2. "Do some research. Find the truth. You won't find it in their books, blogs, articles, interviews, groups, etc."

    Odd - so in all Stacy MacDonald teaches, in every possible outreach and vehicle, you cannot find the "truth." She does not spout any heresy in any printed form. And yet, in her mind there is something sinister.

    I am really confused. If she does not promote unbiblical teachings, then what does it matter what she thinks "secretly"?

    And, what is it that you really think Rick?

    This is really silly.

    Tim

    ReplyDelete
  3. Tim - Thank you for the clear example of what cindy pointed out in her comment. The obfuscation of words is a technique that allows the controllers (that would be you) to control their victims (that would not be us).

    You said: "so in all Stacy MacDonald teaches, in every possible outreach and vehicle, you cannot find the "truth.""

    We aren't fooled by your misspelling of her name. Bay Leaf spelled as Bayly would still smell the same.

    You said: "She does not spout any heresy in any printed form. And yet, in her mind there is something sinister."

    I'm not fully sure of whether it qualifies as "heresy," but she has printed intentional misrepresentations of the scriptures mentioned in this post. Here I must agree with you. That truly IS sinister.

    You said: "I am really confused. If she does not promote unbiblical teachings, then what does it matter what she thinks "secretly"?"

    Again, I must agree. You are really confused. Because my whole post talks about the fact that she is promoting unbiblical teaching in this regard. And what she thinks secretly is none of my business, but has great import on her eternal soul.

    You asked: "And, what is it that you really think Rick?"

    I wasn't fooled by your misspelling of my name either. I know you're talking to me. Come back to my blog often and you will get further and further glimpses into what I think. To sum it up, I am a Christian who wants deeply to live by biblical standards and not be "tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes" Ephesians 4:14.

    You said: "This is really silly."

    Again, I must agree with you.

    I would encourage you to stop torturing language in order to fit it into a mold that is contagious and harmful to the minds of the hearers. This will help you understand clear English, such as "you will not find the truth," which in the context in which it was written here clearly meant, "you will not find the answers to the questions the ladies in the links provided have asked.

    Nice try, but your attempt at distracting folks from those links allowed me another oppportunity to direct the reader to them.

    Rich

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  4. Richard, I am puzzled by the intense, personal tone of your modesty posts. I am in disagreement with some, possibly much, of what Mrs. McDonald writes, but your response seems harsh. Where is the charity? Where is the humility? I hope that only "mature" Christians are reading this, because if an unbeliever or a new Christian were to see this, they might ask, "Is this what being a follower of Christ is all about?" I close with a verse that came to me this weekend as I wrestled with a problem in my church. It stayed my hand as I was poised to write an angry and probably unneccessary letter to my pastor and elders. "Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger and clamour and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice: and be ye kind one to another, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." Ephesians 4:31-32.
    Blessings to you,Richard, and thanks for all you do here. Peggy

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  5. Peggy - Thank you for your gentle words of correction. I appreciate you and your intentions in this comment.

    You have sensed rightly that I am upset. And you are right that I need to watch my step and my words as I go forward.

    To give you some context, as you have probably seen here during the time you have been reading my blog, if I see misuse of scripture or words crafted with the apparent intent of obfuscation or misdirection - I am likely to comment on it ... once. Once I have commented, I've had my say and I drop it.

    This situation is different. Once directed to Stacy McDonald's blog and then following various links from there to other blogs in her camp, I feel that the McDonalds and much of what I've seen of the Patriarch movement is cultish. And maybe is actually a full-blown cult. Unfortunately, a dear friend of mine is currently aligning herself with Mrs. McDonald, which scares me to the core of my being.

    I will try to temper my future comments and simply present facts and documentation as they arise.

    Thank you again for your gentle words of wisdom. And please continue to do this. "Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another" Proverbs 27:17.

    ReplyDelete
  6. I am really confused. If she does not promote unbiblical teachings, then what does it matter what she thinks "secretly"?

    On the hard issues of doctine, the McDonalds are evasive, but they do promote one doctrine that most all of the patriarchy types hold fast to-- that husbands sanctify their wives. Based on a misreading of Ephesians 5:25-27, they believe that the admonshiment for men to love their wives as Christ loves the church does not stop with laying down their lives. They also believe that as Jesus takes His church bride, washes her with the water of the Word and presents her holy and blameless before the Father, they also believe that husbands actually direct the sanctification process of their wives. The patriarch is responsible for at least participating in the sanctification of their wives and any unmarried daughters still under their care until they are given to a husband in marriage. Then that guy is responsible for the daughter, sanctifying her and washing her with the Word just as the father had done.

    Go and read James' blog. If you think that those guys are 100% Biblical (they mix thier own social and moral imperatives in with the Bible), think again. You've got plenty of reading to do.

    Many don't believe that women are the direct image of God but are only derivative and cannot bear the direct Image or glory of God. Some teach that sin actually entered mankind through Eve but that Adam was held accountable for headship because Eve was not capable of bearing the responsibility or the consequences for sin because she was ontologically less or lesser in essence than man.

    Most believe that anyone who rejects their paradigm is tantamount to a radical feminist ala Betty Friedan or one of the old crowd from the 70s, and some call those who reject their paradigm "open theists."

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  7. richard:
    You have sensed rightly that I am upset. And you are right that I need to watch my step and my words as I go forward. >>>>

    Richard, why are you so upset? Is your mind being manipulated by the people around you?



    I used to be very close to some of the people posting at True Womanhood. If you are getting all caught up in this because of them, maybe you need to look into who they are?


    Where are they coming from? You see, I was on a discussion group one time where I was a valued member. I fell out of favor, there. I was abused there, and these folks keep abusing me.

    In fact, I have had intimidating phone calls, hate emails, threats, and some of them stalk me on my own blog.


    Of course, they do what people who are spiritually abusive do...they slander me and spread lies...


    My biggest offense is that I do think for myself, and I do not keep quiet about their abusive bahaviour.


    So, they abuse me, discredit me, and try to shut me down. I shut one of their blogs down lately, and I should not have. I should not even talk to you. My husband thinks that these people are dangerous and that I should stay away from them...


    They have pushed me past my limit, but God needs to build stronger limits in me. this is His school...but it is hard to read what they say...


    Thatmom has me blocked from posting at True Womanhood. If I could post, I'd show them what independent thinking really looks like...

    You may not like the McDonalds, but look at what you have been inspired to do to please those who hate the McDonalds?


    Are you proud of yourself? Do you feel like you have glorified God in any way?


    Well..I'll pay for this, but...


    You need to repent, sir. I say this so boldly because you are so proud of what you have done.

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  8. Richard, YOU are being manipulated by these people.


    What glory is God getting from this? Have you prayed about it?


    Oh, that's right! You are not supposed to feel pressured to pray about things! Only abusive teachers tell you to pray and seek God's will....


    ...or do they? You can pray and seek God's will, but not expect a specific answer. ..or can you? Maybe you can...It's so confusing...


    ...or maybe spiritually abusive people tell you NOT to...and tell you NOT to follow Mt. 18...and tell you that it's okay to mock other people, even though Jesus said that when a person calls another "you fool" they are in danger of the fires of hell...


    ...oh, but only spiritually abusive people quote those verses because they don't know the proper context, and the greek and the people who were being addressed,

    ...

    You see how they have disarmed you, taken away your natural, spiritual restraint, and made you feel justified in mocking another person who is made in the image of God?


    Somehow I doubt it...

    ReplyDelete
  9. Donna - what can I say? You need to submit to your husband who told you not to post these comments and not to follow these blogs. Perhaps concentrating on your missionary work would be a better pasttime for you than posting stream of unconsciousness comments on my blog. Sheesh! No wonder you've been banned.

    I doubt that Donna will understand this, but can anyone who disagrees with me please address the issues I raised. I'm just amazed at the amount of drivel that comes from the KoolAid drinkers. Come on folks. Think a little and interact with what's been said.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Richard, I've thought for some time the NT Scriptures were meant by God to go into the whole world, not to make one single culture, but to baptise many different peoples (with different customs) into one body. The customs can stay what they are, unless of course, they are unscriptural.

    Hence, I have always thought that passage was meant to emphasize good works, and deemphasize the outward appearance, which varies from place to place and across time.

    Donna Carlaw wrote:
    I used to be very close to some of the people posting at True Womanhood. If you are getting all caught up in this because of them, maybe you need to look into who they are?

    Where are they coming from? You see, I was on a discussion group one time where I was a valued member. I fell out of favor, there. I was abused there, and these folks keep abusing me.

    In fact, I have had intimidating phone calls, hate emails, threats, and some of them stalk me on my own blog.


    Donna, I caught your blog, too, yesterday, when you said you promised your husband you would only post on your own blogs and a Yahoo theology email board. Richard's blog is not a Yahoo theology email board.

    I thought you were the one who was trying to teach all the other women about proper biblical roles and that wives should be submissive to their own husbands?

    I admonish you to submit to your husband, and keep your promises to him. He also, so you said, wanted you to post under an alias, which you said you were negotiating with him about. What's there to negotiate, Donna, if you believe so strongly in Patriarchy and a husband's authority?

    You are one lollopollooza of a bad example of what you think a wife should be, Donna, just by coming here. Your own words on your blog yesterday testify against you.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Richard,

    I believe you are correct in your assessment of the meaning of modesty. But here is one reason your perspective will not fly with this group....most of them live at a standard of living above those who purchase their wares. They do not understand that meaning of "modest" as in "a man of modest means." It is far easier to don a long dress than it is to live a simple lifestyle.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Donna, I thought I'd share this text with everyone. You wrote this and I commend you, comedy is good for the soul.

    "I promised him that I would, from now on, stay out of the direct involvement in these discussions. I promised him - and my daughter - that I would just post on this subject here on my blog - and in the Theology List as it comes up. That is a safer place,though I am sure that tongues are busy behind the scenes there, too. I will stay there as long as I can. I also promised that I would not allow any comments on my blog.

    My husband wishes that I would not use my real name, so we are still negotiating that. I am trying to
    explain that if I use a pseudonym like many do, it makes me look like an internet bottom feeder."

    Sorry, Donna. I don't think the use of a pseudonym or your real name will sway people one way or another. Bottom feeders tend to be viewed the same way, whether or not they use a nick.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Persisting in error


    Matthew Henry
    Those are marked for ruin who persist in sin, and are not ashamed of the abominations they have committed>>>>


    DL:
    You are setting people up to see that the McDonalds are persisting in sin. You have not presented your case, but you are trying to manipulate people into arriving at a specific conclusion. Let's see if you are able to prove that they "persist in error."


    DL:
    In the first place, what kind of error? Doctrinal error? Sin? You don't like the way they dress? What is their error? You need to specify. Otherwise, you are just engaging in vague generalities.


    DL:
    Are you engaging in a bit of "thought reform", or are you actually trying to see where the errors are, if any? We shall see... Stay tuned...

    Quote:
    Jeremiah 8:12
    Were they ashamed when they committed abomination? No, they were not at all ashamed; they did not know how to blush. Therefore they shall fall among the fallen; when I punish them, they shall be overthrown, says the Lord.
    "To err is human, to persist in error is diabolical.">>>>


    DL:
    So far I have not seen McDonald's mentioned. You are engaging in inuendo. You are insuinating that the McDonald's are in persistent error and are diabolical. You are trying to manipulate your readers, I would say.

    Richard:
    I have often seen a tendency in myself and in others I have observed to develop personal favorite activities and to eventually come to a point where we hate to give those activities up. The obvious example of this is something like drinking or smoking, which may develop into addictions that require intervention to break. The smoker or the alcoholic refuses to quit, even when he is told how very bad continued indulgence in this activity will be for him. In fact, even the good of exercising may lead to addiction and become a bad thing. The Apostle Paul directly addressed the fact that we need to keep even these good things under check by saying: "For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come" 1 Timothy 4:8.>>>>


    DL:
    So, are you accusing the McDonalds of smoking? Drinking? Not exercising enough? What?

    Richard:
    Many other activities we get involved in may have bad consequences as well, especially if we persist in them after we have been alerted to a problem. Consider the concept of propounding or defending a particular doctrine. Let's say we have been convinced of the truth of evolution. We are determined to convince folks that evolution and not creation is the force that brought our world into existence. We push and push and push that line of thinking.>>>>


    DL:
    If you are making this error, then why don't you repent? Why are you using the collective "we"? Actually, you are the one who is confessing to persisting in error, so why should I listen to what you have to say? By your own admission, you are in error. So, I suppose that I should just leave now.


    DL:
    ...and I am persisting in error, since my husband does not want me to be here in the first place.


    DL:
    So, what do we have left to talk about? Oh, yes...the persistent errors of people who are not here, even though somehow they are part of your "we." Are you talking about some imaginary friends when you say "we" or do you mean "you and I"? It gets so confusing...


    Richard:
    And then one day we run into a well-educated and well-spoken Intelligent Design proponent.>>>


    DL:
    Well I am impressed. If you ran into him, and he was still well-spoken, he must not be in error as you and I are.


    Richard:
    We present our argument to him, laying out each tile in the mosaic of our complete system, complete with our interpretation of the archaeological data backing our idea and statements from experts who agree with our position. But as we lay each tile, this Intelligent Design guru obliterates every one of our arguments with solid fact, science, and philosophy. In the end, we find that we have not been able to answer his positions in the way he has answered ours. He has won the debate, and done so clearly.>>>>


    DL:
    Why do you talk about "we" when you really mean "you" or "I" or whatever...You don't mean "we."


    Ricahard:
    And yet, the next day, we accost the first person we see and present to them all the same things we said before because this new person probably doesn't know the things the Intelligent Design guy did and he will likely be persuaded by our presentation.

    This is called "persisting in error." It happens when we have a "pet" doctrine that we like to proclaim, but then our arguments in support of that doctrine are shown to be wrong, say by scripture and by a demand on using proper terminology and historically accurate definitions. Nevertheless, we continue to push our defeated arguments on other unsuspecting victims.>>>>


    DL:
    Okay. You have already admitted that you are persisting in error. Now you are saying that you go around acosting people, pushing your defeated arguments on some "victims." I don't think that you are the kind of person I want to be around very much. You run into people, you persist in error, and you accost people, making them your victims.


    Richard:
    I have recently been made aware of a group of bloggers who are promoting a non-biblical use of the word modesty.>>>>


    DL:
    Who made you aware? Was it a full moon when they did this to you?


    Richard;
    Although many people have pointed out the error in definition that is giving rise to a tremendously inaccurate interpretation of the scripture, these folks persist in their use of the inaccurate definition. No defense has been made along the line of why this inaccurate definition is being used. The simple fact is that the only reason someone who cannot defend their position will post that position again after it has been refuted is that they choose to "persist in error.">>>>>


    DL:
    This is all too vague. All you have done is tell me that you persist in error. You have not told me what the "real" meaning of modesty is.


    Richard:
    This scenario played out over the past couple of week's on Mrs. Stacy McDonald's blog, Your Sacred Calling. She was made aware of the errors she had made in her application and interpretation of a scriptural passage. She made no defense of her position, and yet persists in her error.>>>>


    DL:
    Okay. So this is the big, huge, damaging error that Mrs. McDonald is involved in? She refuses to submit to someone's idea of what "modesty" means. Let's see if your defintion is Biblical.

    DL:
    You know, a lot of Christians are having a LOT of problems with simple definitions these days. Some think that "help" means "warrior." Imagine a man wanting a wife who might kill him in his sleep? I guess that the garden was very dangerous even before sin entered the world - all those lions, tigers, and bears, oh my!


    DL:
    So, what does modesty mean now?


    Richard:
    This is the passage in question:

    1 Peter 3:3-4 Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair, the wearing of gold, or the putting on of clothing— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.

    The blogs I have seen covering this passage are almost all making the same mistake—that of thinking that this verse is talking about women dressing in a way so as to entice men. That is quite clearly not what this passage is talking about. The blogs not making this mistake are discussing the passage to point out that the mistake has been made by others.

    Because words may have multiple definitions, we sometimes clarify our speech with qualifying phrases using parallels, examples, antonyms and synonyms. These techniques help us to more clearly convey our thoughts and help keep people from misunderstanding what we were saying.

    The inspired words of scripture here use such techniques to help keep us on track. Peter says, "Do not let your adorning be external." He then ensures the reader's understanding by giving some examples: "the braiding of hair, the wearing of gold, or the putting on of clothing." He then continues the clarification with an opposite parallel: "but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit." Quite clearly this passage is not encouraging women to be careful that they cover themselves appropriately with clothing.>>>>


    DL:
    so, what is it you are promoting here? Do you want women going around naked? Partially clothed? How much skin is enough to show? Do you think that Peter even considered that christian women or their daughters would want to dress like prostitutes?


    DL:
    So, are you saying that it is okay for women to go around trying to entice men?


    Richard:
    It is in fact saying that this should not be their primary focus. We can probably agree that proper covering will be an outworking of that gentle and quiet spirit, but it is certainly not being demanded by this scripture.

    A similarly misused scripture is found in 1 Timothy 2:9-10, which says:
    Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel,....>>>>


    DL:
    What does this mean?


    Richard:
    with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.


    Richard:
    Here Paul is telling Pastor Timothy that he should instruct women to be modest in their appearance. Again he uses communication techniques to qualify and focus his statements. He begins with: "Women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel." He then focuses that "respectable apparel" with the phrase: "with modesty and self-control.">>>>


    DL:
    So, then, all we women should wear is modesty and self-control? Will that cover us? Maybe actual coverings do not matter?


    Richard:
    To make sure that Timothy understands what he means by "modesty and self-control" when regarding apparel, Paul then gives some negative examples: "not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire.">>>>

    DL:
    Okay. The pearls and the briaded hair are out, as is costly attire.


    Richard:
    He is obviously using the more common meaning of modest here: living in a simple way rather than in an ostentatious way, as in "he is a man of modest means." He is saying that the women should not be slaves to fashion, worrying incessantly about what they're going to wear. This parallels exactly the requirements in the previous passage that the women dress themselves in a "gentle and quiet spirit.">>>>

    DL:
    So far you have us women going around stark naked! No jewels. No braided hair. Indeed! That way, one would never be a slave of fashion...


    Richard:
    Paul then continues the clarification with a definitional phrase to make clear what he meant. He does this by way of a material example: "but [they should adorn themselves] with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works." Paul is saying that the woman's focus should not be on her manner of dress, but rather on the good works "which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" Ephesians 2:10.

    I know that we are all prone to this sort of idolatry of our "favorite" doctrines—holding them in higher regard than scripture at times. But the fact that we are all prone to this does not make this right. I urge all who see the name Stacy McDonald attached to a book, a blog, an article, a group, or a conference to beware. Don't fall for the veneer. Do some research. Find the truth. You won't find it in their books, blogs, articles, interviews, groups, etc.>>>>>


    DL:
    Huh? If you won't find it in any of these places, then what's the problem? Is it written in some kind of invisible ink somewhere?


    DL:
    Okay, Richard. This is interesting. You think that the Bible tells women to go around naked. You have admitted to persisting in error youself. You accost people. You have imaginary friends there with you all the time.


    DL:
    And we are supposed to worry about the McDonalds?


    Richard, I think that y'all have been snookered...


    ...and now I will quit persisting in my error of talking to you...


    I'm not sure if you are dangerous or not...

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  14. Richard:
    Donna, I thought I'd share this text with everyone. You wrote this and I commend you, comedy is good for the soul. >>>>


    Yes, I agree.

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  15. ...and the reason That Mom won't allow me to respond at her blog is cuz' she doesn't have a sense of humor...

    Now I'll leave you alone Richard...


    It's been fun...

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  16. richard:
    Bottom feeders tend to be viewed the same way, whether or not they use a nick.>>>>


    Richard, after this I will leave you alone. :-) Look what you did here. You have never met me. You do not know me, yet you have judged me.


    I gave you the benefit of the doubt, since you seemed like a godly man. I hated to see your blog sullied by slurs, innuendo, and just plain old gossip.


    Do you see what they have done to you already?

    You will become more, and more bitter. More and more focused on others' sins, real or imaginary. you will say things to and about people that you never thought you would. Your blog will no longer be by His grace and for His glory.


    You have not just judged me, but you have been stalking me. You have taken things from my blog, and then tried to intimidate me with what I wrote.


    Do you see what is happening to you?

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  17. Donna - In all seriousness. Your words and your presentation of your words judged you, not me. You need psychiatric help and I would recommend that you seek out a solid Christian psychiatrist (or a secular one) before you exhibit any worse psychosis and potentially end up in a mental hospital.

    The degree of your apparent issues is serious enough that I do not think I am the first person to recommend that you seek psychiatric help. Please do this ... for your family.

    I am not a psychiatrist, but it might help you to accept the plain teaching of scripture rather than rejecting it because it flies in the face of your concept of what God should have said (but did not say).

    For answers to some of your questions, you might want to read my other posts on this topic, as follows: What's the Difference (March 17), What does the Bible say about modesty? (March 15), Modesty-misuse of scripture-pontificating, etc. (March 14), and the one that launched it all: I'm better than you are (March 12).

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  18. Donna Carlaw wrote:
    Do you see what is happening to you?

    I see what is happening! Richard's comment thread is being derailed by a Patriarchal wife who is unsubmissive to her husband!

    Donna, you are doing a very good job at making a case AGAINST Patriarchy just by posting here, arguing for and defending Patrriarchal people and their teachings, when this activity of yours here is contrary to the known wishes of your husband, and contrary to the promises you made to your husband.

    As I said yesterday, your words testify against you, and Richard has just posted them.

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  19. Does Donna have loved ones that know she is posting all over the place saying these things?

    I feel a bit like I drove up on a car wrecked at the side of the road, and I feel a bit funny just driving on by. Do I stop and help or keep on driving?

    Even though Richard seems to have weathered Donna's drive bys unscathed....

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  20. Eeek - I'm bleeding profusely from my head and have tremendous pains in my stomach. Somebody help ... PLEASE!!

    Oh ... sorry, false alarm. It's just bloodshot eyes and a sore stomach from the fits of laughter.

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  21. Simplegifts3 - I agree completely. The gospel message is not intended to change cultures into a homogeneous American/Western/Eurocentric culture, in spite of the fact that the founder was European - oh, wait ... he was Middle Eastern.

    I agree that modesty (dress) is strongly influenced by culture and geographic location. In fact, even within our own culture, what is considered modest changes drastically from one venue to another. The appropriate outfit for mountain climbing is quite different from the appropriate outfit for a political fundraiser. And either of those outfits worn in the opposite event would be an example of either immodesty or a lack of understanding on the part of the dresser.

    Thanks for visiting my blog. I'm sorry I didn't respond right away. I got a little caught up in other posts that seemed to be calling out for answering.

    ThatMom said: They do not understand that meaning of "modest" as in "a man of modest means." It is far easier to don a long dress than it is to live a simple lifestyle.

    You make a good point. A friend recently pointed out that we Christians tend to disapprove most strongly of those things that are easy for us to avoid and we tend to accept "minor" sins that give us more trouble. This is probably a pretty accurate statement in most cases.

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  22. Richard,
    I enjoyed your post very much. Back when I was still very much a patriarchal wife (in recovery now, thank God), I wore long skirts and a head covering. I remember being jolted into an deep insight when a woman asked me how exactly I was being modest. Didn't modest, by definition mean, one who does NOT stand out and draw attention to oneself? Yikes! Of course, she was right. :)

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  23. Sandy - Praise God for your friend. And praise God that you listened and considered your friend's comments.

    I have mentioned this to a few folks who hold to a definition of modesty that is not scriptural and found that they have great trouble even considering what I've said. It seems that it is rejected out of hand simply because it goes against what they've heard all their lives.

    God bless you as you continue to recover. Thanks for visiting my blog.

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  24. Richard,

    Someone was just telling me that a certain pastor's wife and her daughters all came into the church, last year, on Easter Sunday, in full Renaissance regalia. The wife's gown had a full train trailing behind her.

    Now, I am trying to picture how that is even modest? Jesus should be the focus but I would bet dollars to donuts that all eyes were on the woman and her daughters dressed in their strange get-ups.

    And then I tried to imagine walking into my little conservative church dressed in Renaissance clothing with a full train trailing behind to boot and I think my pastor and elders might be a bit concerned about me. I am quite sure that ALL eyes would be on me and minds would be distracted from worshipping the Lord.

    There seems to be a lot of costuming going on in these patriarchal churches. It reminds me of when I used to do plays and musicals. For the length of the play, I would get into my role, especially when I got into my costume. Costumes and roles go together, naturally.

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  25. Corrie - You've hit the meaning of modesty in the Bible squarely on the head. The point is to not draw attention to ourselves on purpose. If we are concentrating on how we dress in any particular way with the intention of being seen and responded to in a certain way, we are being immodest.

    Matters of dress are truly relative to the situation. My family loves to dress in Renaissance garb. We go every year to the Maryland Renaissance Festival. It's a blast and the cosutmes are loads of fun. But it's appropriate there--not in church.

    All this would be solved if folks would just accept what the Bible says at face value and not try to put their own spin on it to suit their particular agenda.

    You can see some of our Renaissance outfits here or at my wife's blog. The photo in my wife's header is her and our son dressed in costume and headed to the jousting field.

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  26. Corrie (and everyone else) - This morning I read an outstanding passage from Charles Haddon Spurgeon that addresses this very thing. You may want to check it out: Pyromaniacs: Some Certainties for These Uncertain Times

    I'm going to post a reference to this tomorrow on this blog, but thought those who are following this thread might be interested in reading it now.

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  27. Wow! I just read it, Richard. I agree with the commenter who asked -- When did he write it? Yesterday?

    God's word is not to be trifled with. We don't add to it to make rules God didn't give us, and we don't take away from it to excuse sin.

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  28. Richard -

    One phrase comes to mind from college and my days in IVCF (Intervarsity Christian Fellowship)...my staff leader fought a large battle against legalism in our group. He often would tell us women, when aspiring to greater levels of modesty, etc that we just needed to ask ourselves, "Am I dressing attractively, or dressing to attract?"

    Obviously, I dress to attract my husband. He IS my Beloved. He is mine and mine alone. But I also like looking pretty. Asking myself this constantly, "will this cause another guy to look at more than just my outfit" does help. It doesn't stop me from wearing jeans when the weather is -10 below here in WI, or shorts in 90+ degrees in summer. The extra-biblical stuff is just SO frightening.

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  29. Richard, you and the others here are simply awesome. You have a clear succinct view of the Bible, you're not in the least swayed by blatant foolishness *cough* Bayly and Carlaw *cough* and you single-handedly dismantle their foolishness without fiery words or nastiness. You and the others here are just amazing! It's alarming how easily these patrios' blind doctrine and lack of common sense is revealed when they offer just a few words refuting the truth. I love your blog and respect your writing greatly.

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  30. Thank you for visiting, Jennifer. And thank you for your kind words.

    My heart grieves for those who have been caught up in the patriarchal teachings. I have seen first-hand the damage this cultic philosophy can do. And my family has fallen victim to the vicious retribution that comprises the standard response from the patriarchal crowd when their teachings are questioned or held up to the light of scripture.

    Those of us who have not fallen under the vile spell of the patriarchy need to remember that our God is in control and will take care of these folks in his time. And while we wait for God to exact his punishment, we need to watch them, call attention to their false teaching, and gather the victims we find strewn along the way. Then we need to nurse those victims back to health.

    Thanks for visiting my blog. I hope you come back often (and comment often).

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  31. Thank you :)I'm afraid Donna suffers mostly from general instability and the Baylys from gleeful self-promotion stemming from patriarchy, but I do sorrow for the victims. I wonder how many of the VF women, for ex, really happily believe in what they preach, have just been duped, or are manipulators and/or simply enjoying the tiaras they're given by the herd-males. Whatever victims there are, I pray they'll find truth and that those who harm them find repentance.

    Have you read the book Quiverfull? It's a tour-de-force revealing this entire lifestyle and greatly focusing on the VF. Written by a secular woman, but a wake-up call nonetheless. If you're ever interested, I wrote a review for both Quiverfull and, finally, Passionate Housewives which can be found here:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/AU2V2ZKMZFNY6?sort_by=MostRecentReview&display=public&x=16&y=12

    Thanks for the great work!

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  32. Jennifer - I enjoyed reading your book reviews. They are well-stated and appear to be quite balanced, although I must admit to not having read any of these books. I am interested in reading Quiverfull. It looks like an interesting book.

    My wife has noticed a very interesting common characteristic among the patriocentrist women we have met and have interacted with. The women who really push the patriarchal teachings are not truly submissive wives. They rule their own roost and their husbands tend to be very milktoast, whipped husbands. My wife theorizes that many of these women may be pushing these teachings because they long so much for their husbands to develop a degree of manhood. We have had a close association with just one of the extremely patriarchal types and this was definitely true in their marriage. The husband hardly ever opened his mouth at all and tended to even walk a step or two behind his wife, like a puppy following his master. And many things we have read from outspoken patriarchal women have indicated that the same is true in their marriages.

    Just an observation, but an interesting one.

    If you'd like a chuckle, you may want to check out the Graphics label on this blog. You'll have to scroll down a little bit to get to the items related to this topic, but when you get there you may enjoy a few of them. One, in particular, is a sidebar banner I created for the Vision Impaired Forum. Have fun.

    I have not followed the anti-patriarchy blogs and forums for quite some time as it just became too emotionally exhausting. I know someone needs to make a stand, but I have not sensed a calling in that direction for me personally. I'm glad others are standing in the gap.

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  33. Hi Richard! Thanks so much for visiting my reviews and your kind words. I'm sorry I'm so late in visiting and replying.

    I think you're right, women who speak so heavily of submission are domineering themselves, whether of their husbands or other women. It's the nature of the beast, I'm afraid. They employ mind-control tactics in their aggressive wording because they're controlling themselves.

    Note of interest: One of the people who left comments here (the person we know as unstable) has decided that I'm a harasser, have been harassing her for "years" and indirectly said so on her blog. She wouldn't name me, but I knew she was referring to me when she refused to post my comment on her blog and told someone else commenting there that "she'd just gotten comments from the person harassing her". She apparently decided all this about me after I called her up for being rude to some egalitarians and dishonest about their motives on a complimentarian's blog, just a couple of days ago. The truth is, ever since I found out about her past treatment of Corrie a couple years ago and have seen her dishonesty in action, we've butted heads, and she apparently has decided that there's no conflict between us, just mysterious harassment from me. I know that I've gotten off easily here since she's downright verbally flayed other people publically before, and I know that she often abruptly deletes her posts for no reason. So, your professional opinion: should I be worried or amused? Thanks.

    And thanks for the Visionally Impaired banner! I'm off to check it out now.

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  34. Jennifer - I'm sorry you're going through this craziness with unstable patriarchal submissives (a good bit more unstable than submissive in my opinion). I think you should just be amused. When she began going nuts on my blog I got a true kick out of it until I began to seriously worry about her mental health. At that point I wasn't worried for me but for her. I think patriarchal teachings are dangerous to many personalities, but they are absolutely psychological poison to some personalities.

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  35. Alright then, thanks! I don't know whether to be worried about her in general right now or not; she's still posting online and I have no way of knowing if her family notices anything right now. For the most part, I'm tempted to comment on the particular post anonymously defaming me since I know that she randomly closes down posts all the time; I'm praying about it. If I do post, I'm not sure whether to leave her the long post detailing our history that I typed out last night or a simple, irreverent and somewhat amused comment. The former would be a calm way of reminding her that I know what she's really like and I hope she'll get better, whereas the latter would be a way of telling her I don't care about her attempts to claw me.

    Funny thing is, she mostly only thinks she's a patriarchal submissive. She's looking in on a club she desperately wants to be a part of and toadies up to, but she doesn't really fit.

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  36. Jennifer - I'd hate to steer you wrong on this. I think you should be very careful where Donna is involved. She seems to be quite unstable at times and that is always something you need to keep an eye on. It would not be good to suddenly find you've acquired a stalker or find yourself in the middle of an expensive law suit.

    Feel free to contact me directly at richarddgelina@yahoo.com if you'd like to continue this conversation off-line. I understand how sticky and dangerous these things can get when discussed online. My family lost a house and a church family as a result of my involvement in this topic. And others have been hit with legal action and other forms of serious intimidation in order to get them to stop telling the truth to others. These are not a nice group of people.

    I'm sorry if I should know you. I know a few Jennifers from the world of the Patriarchy and its victims, but I was not able to glean much from your Blogger profile (although I understand why you wouldn't include much information there).

    Be strong. Be of good courage. God shows steadfast love and faithfulness to his people.

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  37. "My family lost a house and a church family as a result of my involvement in this topic"

    Oh my gosh! Was this VF related, if you don't mind saying? I knew these people were nasty and have threatened others before, but I didn't know they'd go this far to someone not of their church, or who didn't know them personally (but then, I guess I shouldn't assume you didn't know them).

    I was going to post a longer comment, but I think I will email it to you. Thank you for offering!

    Btw, you know me from the WWF board, the only Jennifer who was ever there, I think, for an extended time. And while we're at it, I've wanted to apologize to you for going off a few times :S (It was a long time ago on a stray subject about abortion. I just felt pressed to say this). Thanks again

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