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on Carson is one of my favorite authors. I had the honor of teaching a class using one of his books as the textbook and foundation for the curriculum. He’s a deep thinker and a solid biblical theologian.
Some of our recent conversations here have brought up the question of why, if he does exist, would God allow evil to happen in the world. This is a difficult question and one that comes up regularly in a world filled with so much evil and suffering. Don Carson attempts to answer this question in this video:
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Wow, Rich, thank you for posting this. I really liked his last statement, "That is the kind of God I can trust." Goosebumps!!
ReplyDeleteThis guy is way too intelligent for a dumb guy like me. I listened to his video twice and still can't figure out what the answer is.
ReplyDeleteHe does admit that his short answer to the question is that he just doesn't know. Some things are just way too mysterious.
At the end of the video he states that when we're in doubt we should turn to the cross.
Yesterday Mary admitted that there is no real proof to support the existance of God. So isn't this gentleman saying that when we lack answers to lifes tough questions, we should turn to something that there is no proof of for the answers? Really?
Yep, Tim, that is the essence of faith. Placing your trust in something you cannot prove. Every last one of us puts our faith in something. You may believe that a chair can hold your weight without collapsing, but just stating so means nothing. At some point you MUST exercise trust by putting your bum on it. That's the proof. There may be an internal flaw in the wood, and though countless others have sat there, you may be the one to sit in it when it collapses...
ReplyDeleteIt isn't faith if you can prove it.
I actually believe that faith in the cross and in the resurrected Jesus is not blind faith at all. I don't have time to fully unpack that concept right now (I'll be working into the wee hours tonight), but at the very least we know that eye witnesses wrote about what they had seen and touched and heard--Jesus claiming to be the Son of God, dying on the cross and then rising from the dead and appearing to multitudes of witnesses after having risen from the dead. They wrote about this supernatural event that had been prophesied down to the actual words stated by the participants in Jesus' crucifixion. None of the participants or those who were around to see and know the truth ever disputed what they wrote.
ReplyDeleteThat in itself is the establishment of verified first-hand testimony to the fact (not opinion) that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that he died and rose from the dead in order to, as he claimed, save his people from their sins.
This is all historic fact. Believing in a butterfly diety, in an all-powerful Force, in Mohammed, or in a divine tree requires far more assumptive faith than believing that the historical Jesus is the son of the Almighty God as he claimed, and that he came to earth to bring the good news of salvation to all who would believe, and that he backed up his proclamation by submitting to a criminal's death and then by raising from the dead and appearing to the multitudes. Believing historical fact is not a huge stretch of faith. In fact, "the demons believe and tremble."
Tim,
ReplyDeleteMy daughter shared a song with me tonight, and I really want you to listen to it when you get the chance. One page is the lyrics, and the other is a youtube link so you can hear it.
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/relientk/thetruth.html3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6iHpzNTjzo
Quick links for Mary's song:
ReplyDeleteLyrics
Video
I hope you both had a good weekend. We had eleven teenage boys over for my son's 14th birthday on Saturday. Somehow it's nice to be back at my quiet cubical today.
ReplyDeleteRichard, this is where I don't know the Bible that well. In which book do we see the writtings of the eye wittnesses to the resurrection?
Mary-Thanks for sharing the song and for thinking of me. I will have to agree that sometimes the truth is the most difficult thing to believe. Especially when someone is not sure of what the truth is.
Have a great day!
Tim - there are multiple accounts of the resurrection of Jesus and what the general public witnessed. Toward the end of each of the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) there is a short account of the close associates of Jesus who saw him after he had risen from the dead.
ReplyDeleteBut I think the most powerful account is in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
So he appeared to hundreds of people, most of whom who were still living when Paul wrote this. They were all eye-witnesses, which made it impossible for people to claim that it did not happen. Under Jewish law, three corroborating witnesses establishes a fact. 500+ witnesses is extreme corroboration. That is why the Roman leaders of the day did not try to deny the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. There was overwhelming evidence.
Richard,
ReplyDeleteThere are two things I know with 100 percent certainty about myself. Number 1-I enjoy the cool refreshing taste of Fresca. And Number 2-I'm not even close to being a Biblical scholar.
I find the debate for and against Christianity to be incredibly interesting. However, when it comes down to comprehending the finer details, I am easily lost.
Online I've found writtings from scholars who back up your claim that verses like the one you pointed to in 1 Corinthians, do indeed support the validity of the resurrection of Christ.
I've also found writting from scholars, trying to debunk the resurrection. Dan Barker, a former fundamentalist minister, turned atheist, suggests that the book of Corinthians was not actually authored by Paul. In fact, Barker believes that there is proof that Jesus did not really exist. Although, I find myself glazing over when reading his evidence.
When I look at the evidence I find it impossible to conclude with certainty that there is no God AND I find it equally difficult to conclude that there is a God. So I'm stuck in the middle. I just don't know.
I do pray that God will reveal himself to me someday. I've been praying that for maybe 30 years. Should I die without a revolation, does that mean God's will is for me to go to Hell?
I'm kinda fond of Fresca too, Tim. And I'm really not much of a biblical scholar either (at least not compared with my father). So we're approaching this from a very similar skill level (and enjoyment level, if each of us has a Fresca nearby).
ReplyDeleteThere's some really cool stuff related to the things you've said in this post. First - no one disputed what was written in 1 Corinthians or in the gospels or Acts back when those books were written. That would be when there were still people around who had lived through the events in question. It took thousands of years for people to decide to actually claim that there never was such a person as Jesus Christ--even though he is one of the historic people that has more historical proof of his existence than most. In fact, there is far more evidence of the historical Jesus than there is of Virgil or Homer. But no one doubts that they lived.
The fact that the story of Jesus' death and resurrection was not disputed by the people who lived at that time (including the elite guards posted at his tomb, who would be in danger of execution should they allow someone to get into the tomb to remove the body) is incredibly strong evidence of the truth and historicity of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.
But the other really cool thing has to do with your question Should I die without a revelation, does that mean that God's will is for me to go to Hell?
I hope you'll bear with me on this:
Jesus had to present his good news to people of all cultures and all personalities, all learning types and all prejudices, all class levels and all political persuasions. His message is for everyone.
Some people are butt-headed (for lack of a more genteel term). Many of those people will not make a move in any direction unless they are challenged to do so. If you ask one of these folks, "please come to me." They will dig their heels in and say, "no way am I ever coming over there."
But if you draw a line in front of one of those types of people and say, "you can't cross this line." They will be over the line in an instant.
Thinking of those people, consider what Jesus said in John 6:44, No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. That type of a person is likely to respond to that sort of statement with, "Oh yeah, I can't come, can I? Watch this." And they immediately turn to Jesus in faith, just to show that they're not going to turn down a challenge.
But there are other types who hear that statement, "No one can come to me unless..." and they respond with hopelessness and say, "what chance is there for me now?" Or maybe more accurately they say, "Should I die without a revelation, does that mean God's will is for me to go to Hell?"
In the passage I just quoted, Jesus had already spoken to those folks by saying in verse 37, whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
You don't have to worry about what God's will is for you at this point, Jesus said that if you come to him he will not cast you out. You've got a guaranteed "in."
But as far as God's will goes, how's this verse from 2 Corinthians 6:2? Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
Richard,
ReplyDeleteYou always give me more things to think about. That's a good thing.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that I have a guaranteed "in". Are you saying that by seeking God, I cannot be cast out? This goes against what other Christians have told me.
What if I seek God, but don't put him first in my heart?
Luke 14: 25-27 "If a person comes to me, but will not leave his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters, then that person cannot be my follower. A person must love me more than he loves anything--even his own life! If a person will not carry the cross (suffering) that is given to him when he follows me, then that person cannot be my follower."
Jesus also says that anyone who calls another person a "fool" will burn in hell. Even though Jesus called several people fools.
I'm just having a hard time believing that the verse you quoted means I would avoid hell, even if I don't believe.
This brings up one of the shortcomings of blogging as a forum for deep discussion. The lack of context can cause problems. You are wise to look to Luke 14 as a defining parallel to what I quoted. No, nothing in the Bible says that you would avoid hell even if you don't believe.
ReplyDeleteThe verses I quoted from John 6 are both longer than the portions I quoted. In their immediate context they actually are: All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out (John 6:37) and No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day (John 6:44).
The word "come" in both of those quotes is further described by Jesus himself in the passage you quoted from Luke. In that passage Jesus is describing what it means to "come to him." He says, in essence, that those who truly come to him will value him so highly that their love of family and even their own life will pale in comparison to their love of him. That they will view him as supremely beautiful and supremely valuable.
To take the full account from John 6 in a fuller context we should consider what Jesus said between the two verses I quoted earlier. He goes on to explain his reason for coming to the earth.
John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
What all of this means is in accordance with Romans 3:11-12, no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. God has a specific group of people whom he has given to Jesus. Jesus came to earth to restore those people to fellowship with the Father. All of those people will come to Jesus, but because of their innate hatred toward God they cannot come to Jesus unless the Father draws them. But once they are drawn, although it may take a lifetime for them to come, they will eventually come - and Jesus will raise them up (to heaven) on the last day.
What all this means to you is that you must determine if your "seeking" for God is genuine or is some sort of insurance policy--an effort to avoid hell should it prove to actually exist (along with God). If you are just looking to avoid hell, you won't be successful. But if you're truly looking for God, you are doing so only because he is drawing you and, although it could take your whole life to finally get there, you will eventually turn to him in faith.
Perhaps your interaction with us here is part of God's process of drawing you to himself. Mary and I are praying that this is so.
Until now I didn't realize it was possible to be confused and enlightened at the exact same time.
ReplyDeleteIt may take me some time to fully comprehend what you just said. I believe you're saying that the underlying message of the Bible is that if someone genuinely seeks God, in the end they will find him. In the end they will turn to him in faith.
Can I just point to something you wrote that I've read about 9 times now and still can't figure it out...
"All of those people will come to Jesus, but because of their innate hatred toward God they cannot come to Jesus unless the Father draws them."
Aren't Jesus and God one in the same? And do people really hate God? I don't hate God. I just don't know if he/she exists.
Am I starting to sound like Andy Rooney with all of these questions? "And what's the deal with cream cheese? Is it cream or is it cheese?"
Finally, I would argue that there are many people who genuinely seek God, who either don't find him, or they end up believing in a God other than Jesus Christ. Are you saying that God has pre determined, before these people are born that he is not going to draw them in?
And why is it that when Christians wittness to a non believer, they emphasise Hell so much? If a "genuine" belief is so important, why the scare tactics?
Thanks for all your time!
Tim
Tim - I'm sorry that it has taken me so long to respond to you. This work week was unbelievably busy and I didn't get to telecommute as much as I normally do. But now it's Saturday, so I'm going to try to get some blog work done. Thanks for your patience.
ReplyDeleteAs usual, you've seen the wealth of underlying layers of belief in our conversation, and have asked some good questions.
You're right that I am saying that someone who genuinely seeks God will find him in the end. But my strong belief that it is so is based on the fact that the Bible says that no one genuinely seeks God unless he draws them. The Bible also says that each person the Father draws will come to him. So a genuine seeker is someone who is in the process of being wooed by God.
Your question about Jesus and God being one is a deep and somewhat difficult one. Christianity springs from Judaism, which holds to a monotheistic God. That means there is only one God, not multiple gods as seen in Buddhism or ancient Greek mythology, for example.
In the Genesis story of creation God says, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Genesis 1:26). This probably didn't make a whole lot of sense to the people of early Israel. But when Christ came he revealed more fully what we now understand about God.
As the Jesus and the apostles further explained to us what has come to be known as "the Godhead," the early church attempted to bring the various different passages of scripture dealing with the Godhead together into a clear and concise statement. Such a statement of belief is called a creed and three creeds in particular have dealt with the trinity.
The trinity is another way of referring to "the Godhead." The trinity is one God, eternally existent in three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Or as the creeds have stated it:
The Apostle's Creed
I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, our Lord.... I beleive in the Holy Spirit.
The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.... And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life; who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spake by the prophets.
The Athanasian Creed
We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.... And yet they are not three eternals, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.... So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
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This is a particularly hard doctrine to get your mind around, but it is how God is presented to us in the Bible, and so we must believe it to be so because this is God's own revelation of himself.
Once again - my comment is going too long to contain in one post. I apologize. Your questions are good and deserve to be well answered. I hope I am up to the task.
ReplyDeleteRegarding hatred of God, this is a biblical colloquialism. Mary was telling me recently that her pastor explained the love/hate thing from the cultural perspective of the biblical Jew as being a matter of priority. So then if you love God with a higher priority love then it can be described that you hate your family. Even though you truly love your family.
So from this biblical Jewish perspective, if you love the world more than you love God, you hate God. Perhaps that is what the bible is saying when it says that we hate God. One instance of such a thing actually states it more strongly in my mind. James 4:4 says, "Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God?" The word "enmity" means to be an enemy. So that verse is saying that if we are friends with the world, we are enemies with God.
Regarding genuinely seeking God - The bible says that no one seeks God. They may seek gods, but they do not seek God unless they are drawn by the Father. So then what those people are seeking is some sort of personal fulfillment, but they are not seeking the transcendent personal God who created the universe with the intention of having a personal relationship with Him. Yes, those people who are seeking a god of their own making with personal fulfillment as a goal will end up believing in a god other than Jesus Christ or they may not ever find an end to their search. But those who seek the God of the Bible, will find him because they cannot seek him unless the Father draws them. And all of those folks who truly seek the one and only God of the Bible will find him and will establish a relationship with him and will spend eternity in heaven with him.
You then asked about whether God has predetermined before certain people were born that he is not going to draw them. The bible does not specifically say that God predetermined to not draw certain people. It does, however, say that he predetermined that he would draw his elect. So the philosophical conclusion may be made that he predetermined not to draw the non-elect. And I do believe that this is the case.
People have reacted negatively to this concept for thousands of years. So the apostle Paul addressed the negative reaction to this concept in Romans 9: 19-24, You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
So Paul is saying that God has, from a certain perspective, made some vessels (some people) "for destruction." And other people are called "vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory."
Regarding Hell - I don't know why Christians emphasize hell so much. I think the most likely reason is that it scares them and was the reason that they themselves turned to God. So they are using the same thing that turned them to God to encourage others to do the same. That is where the phrase "it scared the hell out of me" comes from. That phrase originally meant that a radical change is made in your plans and in your life because of the situation or information you're talking about. It is paralleling that situation to the epiphany that happens when you fully understand the truth of the gospel. It results in a radical change in your plans and in your life because now you are living for the eternal God rather than for yourself and that can be clearly seen in your behavior and your motivations.
ReplyDeleteOthers see Jesus as supremely desirable and turn to him for that reason. So those folks are more likely to present the gospel in that way.
Genuine believe is absolutely vital. But some will turn in belief to God because they find him irresistible and other turn in belief to God because the alternative "scares the hell out of them."
Hi Richard,
ReplyDeleteI really appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge with me. In fact, you put so much work into this last response that I'm tempted to just respond by saying "AMEN Brother! It all makes sense to me now!" That would be a lie though.
You explained that a person cannot have a relationship with God, unless the Father draws him in. But if God does draws a person to him, that person WILL find God.
Hmmm?
I'm reminded of the most memorable message I learned in Sunday school. "Jesus Loves the Little Children". And this is where there is a disconnect for me when you quote the Bible verse which compares people to clay in the hands of potter. The potter has a right to destroy whatever works he feels like destroying. Just like God can choose to destroy any of us. So does Jesus really love the little children? All of them? Or are some like clay in the hands of a potter...born for no other purpsoe than to be cast in the fire. That's not love.
Do you believe that if ever single person on Earth believed in the God of the Bible, the world would be a better place? Becasue it seems like God is saying that this is not the case. Without all of those "vessels of wrath", we would not understand the "richness of his Glory."
Personally I would find Richness and Glory in a God who drew us ALL to him. A God of love. Maybe it's from all of these years of being a liberal, but death, wrath and destruction, do nothing to make God's glory more rich in my eyes. If anything it tarnishes that Glory.
On a lighter note. How about those Minnesota Vikings?
Thanks Richard!
Tim
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIn the current conversation, Tim, you've reached the point where the rubber meets the road. And if I were to sugar-coat things, it would not be a kind gesture.
ReplyDeleteGod defines love. The bible actually says, "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16). So if our finite human understanding of "love" makes us think that something God does is unloving, it simply means that we do not understand love.
God does love all people, but he loves his elect in a particular intimate way--a personal relationship way.
The Bible says that God is willing that all men would believe. Another way of saying that is that God would like that to happen. But that would not reveal his full character to those he has chosen to reveal himself to. The others will not understand in this lifetime why God must do this, but the Bible says that these things have been done to bring greater glory to God.
The fact is, both sets of people (those in heaven and those in hell) will see the full extent of God's glory and will worship him. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:9-11).
One day we will all bow and worship him. We will allsee him as the righteous, holy, and loving God that he is. And we will all bow and worship him. The sad thing is, for some it will be too late at that point.
The world may be a better place if every single person believed in God, but the grander scheme of history would not. There could never be a better world than the world that God has created. The bad things that happen in the world are necessary to give us the full picture of who God is. I don't understand that yet, but some day I will--as will you.
If you find that death, wrath, and destruction do nothing to make God's glory more rich in your eyes. If, in fact, it tarnishes that glory, you desperately need to bow before God and ask him to help you see the truth. Because that statement places you within the group of those who will spend eternity in hell. It means that you are not genuinely seeking God.
I pray that God will allow you to see him for who he is.
Oh - and I don't know about the Vikings, but my Redskins really stink this year. I am not happy about this.
Tim - One thing I would like to add, however, is that my view of God is not what you should base any decisions on. It really doesn't matter at all what I think is true about God. What's true about God is written in the bible for you to discover.
ReplyDeleteI love answering your questions and engaging with you, but when you get right down to the foundation of the whole thing, you must find the God of the Bible. That is the true God and the Bible is the way he himself communicates with us and you can find Him there.
Although I believe that I have represented God properly in our interaction, I am human and finite and prone to error - just like everybody else. God never errs and the Bible is totally accurate. So if I have said anything about God that contradicts what you find about God in the Bible, you should jettison what I have said without a second thought and go with the Bible.
Richard,
ReplyDeleteYou'll be pleased to know that I totally agree with something you said in your response. The Redskins REaLLY do stink!!!
Everything else I pretty much disagree with. I do not believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. I do not believe that every species of animal lived within walking distance to Noah's house. And I do think that, if there is a God, he/she could have indeed created a better world. The fact that you claim that God could not have created a better world, leads me to believe you've never been to Pittsburgh or listened to a Cathy Lee Gifford Christmas CD.
One more thing. Does God want us to me more like him? You claim that God is love. So if God's definition of love, includes creating people (vessels of destruction) whose ultimate purpose is to end up burning in hell for the glory of God...then maybe I need to change my ways. I've been doing the whole LOVE thing all wrong.
I take it that it would not make sense for a Christian to wittness to someone who is a vessel of destruction. God has predetermined that he will not draw these people in.
I realize I'm leading our discussion in circles.
Can I just give you an example of how I feel when you say I need to bow down to God and pray that he will make all of this make sense? Lets say someone knocks at your door, promoting a religion other than Christianity. The more the person talks, the less sense they make to you. When you ask a question they respond with.."to avoid the torture that our God has in store for you, you need to bow down and pray that he will give you the answers to your questions."
I have prayed to God many times. Sincerely hoping that he will reveal himself. And there is never a response. And now I hear my mom's voice saying..."Honey, sometimes God's answers is NO". WELL SCREW THAT! I'm not so stupid that I'm going to buy the BS I've been told for years and years.
I'm sorry for being so frustrated.
Tim
I have, indeed, been to Pittsburgh and have had the unfortunate experience of working in a store that played the Kathy Lee Gifford CD during the Christmas shopping season. And yet I believe what I am told in the bible. For some reason, the bad stuff exists.
ReplyDeleteA big part of it though is that sin entered the perfect world God had created. It was absolute perfection until there was sin. The Bible says that sin came through Adam and redemption of sin comes through Christ.
We are to be more like Jesus. But we are not God, so our love recognizes that we are not the creator and we are not the most awesome and loving person in existence. So while we are to be like God, it is with the understanding that we cannot be like God in many ways and with the understanding and acceptance of our finiteness.
Although we have already discussed the concept of evangelizing the non-elect, I'm going to address it from a different angle. Last time I said that we are to share the gospel with everyone for two reasons: 1) because we don't know who the elect are, and 2) because we are told do do so. But there is another reason in the bible.
I recently quoted the verse that says, "God's word will not return void, but it will accomplish that for which it is sent."
When I share the gospel with someone I am sharing with them the word of God. That word is being sent to them for a specific purpose. If that person is elect, the word has been sent to them to communicate God's love and plan of salvation. If, however, the person is not elect, it is being sent so that the person will have no excuse when they reject Christ.
You see, although God would be perfectly righteous in sending a person to hell because of their sins even if they had never heard the gospel. Once they have heard the gospel, they have no excuse. They have been given the honest offer of reconciliation with God, but they have rejected it. They have no excuse at that point. So when they are sent to hell, they cannot say, "But, God, I never knew." Because they did know. They knew the truth and they rejected the truth.
And the more those people hear the gospel the more their excuse is seen as futile. They are obviously fully responsible for their rejection of Christ.
So it's not a matter of avoiding the torture God has in store by accepting something that doesn't make sense. It's a matter of accepting the truth, even if you don't know the full truth yet. No one needs to know the deep matters of theology that we have discussed for the past few months in order to be reconciled to God. You need to know only that Jesus is the very Son of the living God, that he came to earth to die to pay the penalty for the sins of all who would believe, and that he rose again from the dead--victorious. When you are aware of those truths and you put your faith in Christ to save you from the penalty of your sins, you will spend eternity in heaven. When you are aware of those truths and you reject them out of hand, you will spend eternity in hell. At least if you continue to reject the truth you have been made aware of.
And as you have said, you have been made aware of this truth all your life. It looks like God is pursuing you right now. He's pursuing you either to win you as his prize. Or he is pursuing you so that you will have no excuse at your final rejection of him.
Which one of those is the case is pretty much up to you at this point.
Richard,
ReplyDeleteYou say...
"So it's not a matter of avoiding the torture God has in store by accepting something that doesn't make sense. It's a matter of accepting the truth, even if you don't know the full truth yet."
Can you read that a couple of times and tell me honestly that it makes sense to you?
Number one..In order to accept the truth, I have to know what is true. I honestly do not know. If not knowing the truth is the same as rejecting it then I'm guilty. And according to the book that you put your faith in, I'm going to burn in hell forever. It's quite a price for something I have no control over. I can't make myself accept something as the truth. Can you?
Number 2, When I read that comment I felt like it was a contradiction. On one hand you say that it's not a matter of accepting something that doesn't make sense. On the other hand you say it's a matter of accepting the truth. Well "the truth" that you speak of, is one in the same with that which does not make any sense to me.
If there is a God I think he must have created me to be one of those vessels of destruction.
Have a great Thanksgiving!
I understand how you feel, Tim. And I'm sorry I'm not able to state it more eloquently. What I was trying to say is that you don't need to know vast amounts of theology to accept Christ. You need only know the basic fact that he died to save you from the penalty of your sins.
ReplyDeleteYou're right that you can't accept a truth if you don't know it's true. And you can't make yourself accept something as true (and neither can I). Only God can reveal the truth of who he is to any of us. So if you really want to know the true God, you can turn to him and ask him to do that. But if you continue to hate that God, as was indicated by your statements against the true God of the bible, i.e., Personally I would find Richness and Glory in a God who drew us ALL to him. A God of love. Maybe it's from all of these years of being a liberal, but death, wrath and destruction, do nothing to make God's glory more rich in my eyes. If anything it tarnishes that Glory, then you will be left without that revelation.
It seems from my perspective that you have built a god in your own mind who you would be willing to believe in. He seems to look a lot like a grandfatherly Santa Claus. He's a jolly, friendly, and nice old codger who is just a lot of fun to be around. But that's not the true God and you simply don't want to submit to the true God, even though the promises of such belief are eternal comfort, security, peace, and a personal relationship with the sovereign of the universe.
Although some may not need to know much else than that Christ died for them, you may be driven to know the full extent of God's character and the theology that surrounds the biblical God. If that is the case, you are on the right path. You need to continue searching and asking questions. And the end of that path may be that God will reveal himself to you.
One of my heroes of the faith is Pastor Voddie Baucham. He is an intellectual, like you are. He was not able to accept the simplistic presentations of God that he heard from Christians. He was raised a Buddhist and the typical simplistic presentation of the gospel did nothing to persuade him of the truth of Christianity. So he did a deep intellectual study of Christianity, the end result of which was his conversion.
Mary and I would love for you to join us in our belief. And that probably comes across to you as us being impatient or trying to get you to believe something that doesn't make sense to you (yet). I apologize for the times I have come across that way. Christianity is not something that can be spread by coercion. It is a personal relationship that you alone must pursue. And your questions and interactions with us are part of this stage of your search. I welcome them and I respect you and your questions.
Keep them coming when you think of them and we'll try to answer as best we can. Just remember that these things seem obvious to us and it makes us feel bad when you don't see what we do in the person and work of Jesus. We know the comfort and security of a personal relationship with Christ and we want you to experience it as we have.
But in the end, it's something that only you and God can settle on.
Hey Tim,
ReplyDeleteSorry to have been so silent. It's been a busy couple of weeks with Thanksgiving and now our big Christmas program...
But something I've been thinking about as I've read the interaction between you and Rich keeps niggling away at me.
"Personally I would find Richness and Glory in a God who drew us ALL to him. A God of love. Maybe it's from all of these years of being a liberal, but death, wrath and destruction, do nothing to make God's glory more rich in my eyes. If anything it tarnishes that Glory."
Here's a couple of observations: When people ask me, "Why doesn't God take care of evil in the world?" I ask, "What if He did?" What would it look like if today God took care of all the evil in the world? Let's say He destroyed every last person who did evil in His sight. How many would be left?
But I propose that God DID take care of evil in the world when He sent His Son, Jesus, into the world to become the propitiation for sin. God Himself took the penalty for our sin on Himself on the cross. Then Jesus cried out, "It is finished." The phrase He used literally means, "paid in full". Yes, the debt we owed the Creator was paid in full that day.
Finally, Tim, your comment tells me that you can only accept a God who is like you. The God of the Bible is just totally unacceptable. People say that do not hate God, but when you finally draw them down to the bare bones of their argument, what you hear is, "I cannot love that kind of God."
What we're left with, then is a God who looks good but cannot do anything!! Max Lucado talks about our "refashioned God" in the book Traveling Light:
"God as...A genie in a bottle. Convenient. Congenial. Need a parking place, date, or field goal made or missed? All you do is rub the bottle and poof -- it's yours. And, what's even better, this god goes back into the bottle after he's done. A sweet grampa. So soft hearted. So wise. So kind. But very, very, very old. Grandpas are great when they are awake, but they tend to doze ff when you need them. A busy dad. Leaves on Mondays, returns on Saturdays. Lots of road trips and business meetings. He'll show up on Sunday, however, so clean up and look spiritual. On Monday, be yourself again. He'll never know.
Ever held these views of God? If so, you know the problems they cause. A busy dad doesn't have time for your questions. A kind grandpa is too weak to carry your load. And if your god is a genie in a bottle, then you are greater than he is. He comes and goes at your command.
A god who looks nice but does little. (Traveling Light, page 12)
Tim, to me, a god who is like me is not a god to be worshiped. A god who is a fairy grandmother, who is nice to everybody, no matter how rude they are to her -- just not worth my time. But the holy God who sought to walk with Adam, who created a place in Israel where He could live among the people and be their God, and the God who sent His Son to pay the penalty of sin FOR us so He could indwell us and live with us and Who by His own work makes us LIKE HIM -- That, Tim, is a God I believe is worth my worship. That is the God to whom I have surrendered, accepted His free gift of salvation that in my sorry unregenerate state I could never earn, and now am being made holy as He works in me by His awesome power.
Believe me, Tim, when I say that I am diligently praying that you will one day soon respond to God's invitation.
Hi Mary,
ReplyDeleteI was actually thinking about you over Thanksgiving and wondering how you were feeling. It's great to hear from you!
Your last message reminded me a lot of the movie Bruce Almighty. Have you seen it? In this film, Jim Carey is angry at God and feels that HE could do a much better job in running the universe. SO magically his wish comes true and he becomes God. It isn't long before the world is thrown into caos, as Bruce grants everyones prayer.
I understand to some exttent the reason for free will and for evil in the world. The comment I made about the richness of God's glory was referring to the fact that God creates people for the sole purpose of being destroyed in the end. He has decided that he will not draw them in.
So I guess it's possible that I am one of these people. When I call out to God, i get nothing back, because God has decided that I'm one of his "vessels of destruction", never to be drawn to him. I'm sorry, but if this is true and my only purpose in life is to make the world more balanced, before buring in hell, then I find it hard to call that love.
And I have to take exception to the notion that if God were to allow EVERYONE to be drawn to him, there would be no evil in the world. That seems to imply that Christians do less evil than non believers, which I know is not the case.
One more example. Yesterday my co-worker gave birth to a little girl. According to what Richard pointed to in the Bible, it's possilbe that this beautiful child was created so that she could one day burn in hell. God has decided for whatever reason that he will never bother to draw her to him. And because this doesn't seem loving to me, Richard suggests that I should bow down to this God. THEN WHAT? Will bowing make this make sense to me?
Finally you made this point..."I propose that God DID take care of evil in the world when He sent His Son, Jesus, into the world to become the propitiation for sin." I don't understand. If God took care of evil in the world, why is it still here? And from your comments I'm assuming there will also be evil in Heaven. I mean if the world could not function without evil, then how will heaven?
Sure the Bible says that Jesus paid the price so that all who believe will spend eternity in heaven. But what about those who do not believe because God has chosen not to draw them in, but instead to cast them in a fire like a big fat lump of clay.
AMEN!
Hi Tim,
ReplyDeleteI had a great Thanksgiving. Lance's cousins, aunt and uncle rented a beach house on the NC outerbanks -- I watched the dolphins play in the ocean while I ate my turkey dinner on the deck. That pretty much qualifies for a great Thanksgiving, don't you?? I am now participating in the concert series that I longed to be able to play in when I went in for surgery. It's been really great!!
To answer your questions about responsibility, here's the reality. Rich and I have shared the gospel with you. For the reasons you've stated, you have rejected it. God has revealed Himself to you through His Word and our testimony as well as the testimonies of others He has brought into your life. He has given you a clear opportunity to accept or reject the free gift salvation that He has offered to you. Quite simply, you have chosen not to believe or accept it on His terms. He is not responsible for your rejection of His gift. If He did not at all offer it to you, you could blame Him. But through our interactions, you have gotten the gospel, and you now are responsible for your choice. You may say that you reject because you are not called, but just the opposite may be true -- God keeps bringing you the truth over and over again through our interactions, yet you still walk away. I think we've been pretty consistent and clear in explaining to you what we believe and what the scriptures say. Frankly, you are without excuse.
I'm not trying to be flippant at all, but I am being honest. You still have an opportunity to accept God on His terms. If you do not, it will be that choice that condemns you.
Here's a story Jesus told in Luke 16:19-31:
Jesus said, “There was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed in purple and fine linen and who lived each day in luxury. At his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus who was covered with sores. As Lazarus lay there longing for scraps from the rich man’s table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores.“Finally, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham.[e] The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and his soul went to the place of the dead.[f] There, in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side.“The rich man shouted, ‘Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames.’“But Abraham said to him, ‘Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there.’“Then the rich man said, ‘Please, Father Abraham, at least send him to my father’s home. For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them so they don’t end up in this place of torment.’
“But Abraham said, ‘Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read what they wrote.’
“The rich man replied, ‘No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins and turn to God.’“But Abraham said, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Both things are true at the same time. God has given you the word of the prophets and Moses. He has given the words of Jesus, and he has given you the testimony of His own children. We won't know for some time yet if you are "one of the called," but we do know that you are at this moment confronted with His word. If you truly want Him, choose Him. It's a lot easier if you blame God, but it will not change the outcome, and more than it did for the rich man in the story Jesus told.
I hope your weekend is a good one, and that you will enjoy your family traditions during this Christmas season!!
I may give you a more detailed answer later, but this was just what I had on my mind before I rush out the door.
How do you know that it is God who has given us these words? You yourself said that there is no proof.
ReplyDeleteIn your message I feel like you're telling me that the Gospel is SOO believable that anyone who questions it is crazy and deserves to be condemned.
I appreciate that you have taken so much time to try to answer my questions. To be honest though, your answers leave me more confused than I already was. Apparently this means that I have some sort of a problem. I'm either stupid, full of pride, I hate God or all of the above.
There is also another option. Why is it out of the realm of possibility that I'm not rejecting God; I'm just finding the entire Biblical story implausable?
The one thing you said that kind of frustrated me is "If you truly want Him, choose Him." You've already told me in a previous message that it is impossible to make yourself believe something. But isn't that what you're asking me to do here?
It would be like me offering you a home for only $500 on the Outer Banks. But when you ask me questions about the specfics of the offer, they don't make sense to you. When you explain to me that you're skeptical, I respond by saying, "Well, you've been confronted with the facts. So if you choose to decline this offer, you deserve to be condemned. If you truly want this house bad enough you will choose it."
Are you still following me? lol Sorry. If I were to offer this great $500 house to enough people, I would guess that some would believe me. WHY? Because they TRULY wanted to believe. And this is why I think most Christians believe in God. Not because there is proof, but because they truly want to. It's not a bad thing...It's just a fact.
Thanks for listening to my ramblings.
Tim
Hi Tim,
ReplyDeleteI want to answer one of your questions at a time, starting with the one that seems to be most consistent in your replies, which is, "I keep asking God to reveal Himself to me." My question to you then, is "How do you know these are NOT God's Words? How do you know He is NOT answering?"
Remember, Tim, we've talked about how we "know" what we know. It's is faith based on the evidence. I've examined the evidence, and I find that it overwhelmingly stacks up in the favor of the reliability of the Bible being God's word, and that Yahweh, the God of the Bible, is the one true God. I would love to send you several good books to read to help you examine the evidence, and will if you like.
There is a great book I'm using next year with my girls, "The Reason For God" by Timothy Keller. Visit the website and listen to Keller's opening remarks... http://www.thereasonforgod.com/
My last comment was a response to this, "When I call out to God, i get nothing back..." I wanted you to know that your calls have not gone unheard. He is revealing Himself to you.
It's sort of like someone who is an alcoholic. He knows he drinks too much, but he cannot call himself an alcoholic. He believes he can quit drinking anytime he wants. So when he visits an AA meeting on an invite, and the leader tries to tell him the truth, he dismisses it, not because the message isn't true, but it's not true "for him". At some point, he will have to realize that the truth has been in front of him all the time. Once he accepts it, he can get on with his healing, quit drinking, and get his life back.
Again, Tim, I believe with 100% certainty that God is answering you, or you would not return to this blog. I think He is drawing you. I think you are responding to the beauty of Christ in the faith that Rich and I share -- the peace in the midst of life's storms that we share. You see that we are thinking, reasoning individuals. You see that we can provide evidence for what we believe. You return because it's making some sense for once -- maybe you don't get it all, but for once, someone can back up what they say and be consistent. God has brought you here, Tim, and I want you to at least admit that the possibility exists that He is indeed answering your call... is it possible that it really is your answer??
Hi Mary,
ReplyDeleteI hope you're right about God drawing me in. It sure doesn't feel it.
For now I'll give you a well deserved break from all my questions.
Thanks!
Tim