November 19, 2008

Augustine and Pelagius? Calvin and Arminius?

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at 5:17 AM

7 comments:

  1. Mary Fuller11/19/2008 8:33 AM

    "Perhaps some are predestined to be Arminians, while others choose to be Calvinists."
    borrowed from: http://www.wordandspirit.co.uk/blog/index.php?/archives/120-Seven-Point-Calvinism.html

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  2. Richard D11/19/2008 11:23 AM

    It almost sounds like you're saying that God is the author of evil - if, in fact, He is responsible for some folks being Arminians.

    ;-)

    Thanks for the link. I think I fall down on John Piper's side on this and have referred to myself as a 7-point Calvinist before (even in this blog, I think). Where I would take exception to the author that you referred to in that link is that in his example he is viewing the predestination concept from God's point of view, and that is something we really are not capable of.

    If you were to speak with one of those homeless people who didn't receive the 10-pound note, he would probably say, "This guy walked up and decided to give someone else a 10 spot, but he chose not to give me one." And that homeless person would be right in saying that. What was in the mind of the giver may not have been an intentional rejection of the ones who did not receive the money, but in practical terms for those folks - it is the same as intentional rejection.

    A biblical example of this can be seen in Malachi 1:2-5 where it is made quite clear that when God said, "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated," He is actually saying that he hates Esau - not just that he loves him less than Jacob. That passage shows intentional antipathy toward the descendants of Esau.

    So even though it doesn't sound warm and fuzzy to our 21st Century human sensibilities, the Bible says that God, the Potter, makes some vessels for dishonor, and that He is right in doing so.

    Interesting thoughts to ponder.

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  3. Lydia McGrew11/19/2008 8:16 PM

    One of my husband's profs. used to have two pictures of pigs that looked exactly alike. I believe they were lounging back and eating grapes or something, generally conveying a picture of porcine dissipation. Under one of them it said, "Calvinist pig, sinning because he has to." The other was labeled, "Arminian pig, sinning because he wants to."

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    Replies
    1. Bruce J2/27/2014 5:37 PM

      Close - but in fact, the pair you mention were an Augustinian and Pelagian pig (same debate at root, but centuries earlier).

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  4. simplegifts311/19/2008 8:48 PM

    Snort . . . grunt . . . guffaw . . . where's my truffles?

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  5. Mary Fuller11/20/2008 9:59 PM

    You know Rich, I just can't decide where I am on the "sixth point". I do know that all of us are deserving of hell, end of discussion. I also know that in His mercy, God chose to save some. So, I guess I've made myself comfortable by saying, does it really matter? And since I can't know the intention of God, can I be dogmatic on this point? I know what scripture teaches (stated above), but taking it to that next logical step (since God chose some, he rejected others) is just not that big a deal to me. However, as you state, that passage, and the one in Romans is very clear -- God made a choice of His own volition, not by any merit of the recipients of His favor. The choice was made before the foundations of the earth. So, although I am more ambivalent than you, I really think you are correct. However, on the "seventh" point, I am just a little more cautious. I'm not sure that election has anything to do with our obedience to the Great Commission. Since we cannot discern who is elect and who is not, we cannot be selective in our gospel outreach. Surely, anyone looking into my home would have felt it was a waste of the gospel to share it with me. Praise God, The Good Shepherd went seeking and brought the gospel to me. The Calvinist in me knows I never would have sought Him out!!!

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  6. Mary Fuller11/21/2008 5:10 AM

    Oh, on the seventh point, too, I must make an adjustment -- knowing that God has ordained beforehand the good works He has for us to do, He has ordained meetings for me on a regular basis, where He desires for me to share the gospel. I need to be tender to the Spirit's leading so I am "ready to give an answer". However, to beat everyone I meet over the head with the gospel and arm wrestle them into making a commitment is worthless. Jesus told His disciples not to cast their pearls before swine. Jesus also told truth in parables so as not to further condemn those who would reject the truth. Since only those who are chosen will respond, our job is to share the gospel with all whether in word or deed, and disciple those who respond.

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